B
BP
Guest
Gary, it's 1am Chicago time, I didn't think anyone was awake to hear the thunder! :lol:
Best EFI fuel pump? And where to get it?
- Thread starter 2fast4mom
- Start date
GFinch
Well-Known Member
Well it's only 11:11 here now . I was in the process of telling him about the voltage drop test and checked the thread and you beat me to it . Better you than me becuse he hasn't listened to a thing I've said yet. What does this old grease monkey know anyway. I learned that test over 35 years ago, what did they know anyway.
B
BP
Guest
Lets call it even... I have been a "grease monkey" for 25 years, so you got me beat on that one :lol:
GFinch
Well-Known Member
OK.
I don't envy you in the land of salted roads and that white stuff. I've only seen snow fall out of the sky twice in my lifetime.
I don't envy you in the land of salted roads and that white stuff. I've only seen snow fall out of the sky twice in my lifetime.
I've listened to everything you've said Gary, and have appreciated all of it.
Don't know why the --- attitude.
J
John Richied
Guest
Lou read this again… The Diamond Marine Fuel article figure 18…
I think the idea of plumbing the return fuel line into the fuel water separator on the “IN LET” sounds interesting. It does say it’s not the first choice but wouldn’t it act like a surge tank?
We should mention a few things regarding the return from the regulator. Ideally, it needs to be back into the main tank far away from the pick-up. The Pro Max (“Laser”) style system came to be because the Coast Guard cringes at the thought of a fuel line returning to the boat. Finding an empty port in the main tank is the first choice. If there is no fitting available, fabricate aluminum (Stainless, brass, bronze) splice to install into the fuel fill hose with an angled fitting or barb to accept the return line. Once in the main tank, the return fuel can cool and dissipate any air bubbles that may have formed.
If a line directly to the main tank is impractical, it is okay to plumb the return fuel into an empty “in” port on your water separator housing. This method has inadvertently saved many people from problems.
In the late eighties, we would weld a fitting to the side of the Kinsler filter on the suction side of the Weldon pump. This was a quick cure to remove the bog from hard turning tunnel boats. Theoretically not the best method but it worked. If you use a catch tank system, then use the port you hopefully welded on top.
I think the idea of plumbing the return fuel line into the fuel water separator on the “IN LET” sounds interesting. It does say it’s not the first choice but wouldn’t it act like a surge tank?
We should mention a few things regarding the return from the regulator. Ideally, it needs to be back into the main tank far away from the pick-up. The Pro Max (“Laser”) style system came to be because the Coast Guard cringes at the thought of a fuel line returning to the boat. Finding an empty port in the main tank is the first choice. If there is no fitting available, fabricate aluminum (Stainless, brass, bronze) splice to install into the fuel fill hose with an angled fitting or barb to accept the return line. Once in the main tank, the return fuel can cool and dissipate any air bubbles that may have formed.
If a line directly to the main tank is impractical, it is okay to plumb the return fuel into an empty “in” port on your water separator housing. This method has inadvertently saved many people from problems.
In the late eighties, we would weld a fitting to the side of the Kinsler filter on the suction side of the Weldon pump. This was a quick cure to remove the bog from hard turning tunnel boats. Theoretically not the best method but it worked. If you use a catch tank system, then use the port you hopefully welded on top.
Thanks John, it's an easy thing to do and worth a try. The W/S filter flange DOES have a spare inlet. All I'd need is a threaded fitting with a 1/4" hose barb on the end.
This would also have the net effect of increasing fuel pressure to the suction side of the pump.
I might also try simply bypassing the W/S filter (just take it out of the equation) to see what effect that change does.
This would also have the net effect of increasing fuel pressure to the suction side of the pump.
I might also try simply bypassing the W/S filter (just take it out of the equation) to see what effect that change does.
J
John Richied
Guest
I don’t know that I would do it just yet… I just thought it was interesting.
I don’t run the fuel/water separator, but if I did, before I tried this I would want some feedback from people who have done it.
Where your fuel/water separator is above your fuel pump it might aid in feeding the fuel pump inlet that as the article said, “You don’t want to starve” :?:
Has anyone set their fuel system up this way?
I don’t run the fuel/water separator, but if I did, before I tried this I would want some feedback from people who have done it.
Where your fuel/water separator is above your fuel pump it might aid in feeding the fuel pump inlet that as the article said, “You don’t want to starve” :?:
Has anyone set their fuel system up this way?
ALLISONMAN
Well-Known Member
I WOULDNT do that the return needs to be unubstructed back to the tank or you will see a spike in fuel psi and then you will be extremely rich and could foul some plugs!!!
OK AMAN thanks for the tip!! Won't go there yet!!
NEW FUEL PUMP just arrived overnight from Glenn.....a bit later today we will know more!!!
LuLu
PS, I thought of another test I could do...get a short piece of clear vinyl 3/8" fuel hose and splice it into the feed line and SEE if there's any air bubbles getting sucked through right before the pump makes noise!!!
Also this is a good chance to see if I've got a good siphon feed to the bottom of the pump, when I pull off the pump feed line because the whole thing is full of fuel now!!
NEW FUEL PUMP just arrived overnight from Glenn.....a bit later today we will know more!!!
LuLu
PS, I thought of another test I could do...get a short piece of clear vinyl 3/8" fuel hose and splice it into the feed line and SEE if there's any air bubbles getting sucked through right before the pump makes noise!!!
Also this is a good chance to see if I've got a good siphon feed to the bottom of the pump, when I pull off the pump feed line because the whole thing is full of fuel now!!
GFinch
Well-Known Member
Lou, it's not attitude it's frustration.
I might be mistaken or misled to this assumption that you are involved in cyrogenics.
If the liquid you use for cooling isn't kept under pressure it turns into vapor.
So if the fuel/liquid you are using comes into an aera of less than atmospheric it will turn to vapor easier.
If at the fuel pump inlet or in the line to it there is restriction to sufficent flow, cavation can take place, causing air/fuel vapor bubbles.
AllisonMan is correct, the bypass or extra fuel pressure needs an unrestricted flow, otherwise the pressure won't be regulated by the regulator but by the pressure built up in the return hose.
This is a quote from the MADMAN(Wayne Taylor) MAD EFI. Even though he's a red neck he knows his sh-t.
Mecury Marine sells probably over 200 EFI fuel pumps to Allison boat owners a year because Allison gas tanks are so deep. The pumps are mounted too high in the boat or are on the engine which causes early failure due to having to suck fuel to prime and then suck to pump fuel.
The pump has to suck to get the fuel to the top of the tank even though it's mounted below the fuel leval. Other wise there would be no need to create a siphon, the fuel would just start flowing over and out of the tank by itself.
Really I'm just trying to help, I know how is is to burn power heads up constantly due to my mistakes, ignorance or ignoring those tell tail signs or voices. Probably 2 a year for the last 15. That may be a little low.
"When you hear hoof beats, don't start looking for Zebras"
I'm guilty of this statement more than I'd like to think.
Some day I hope we will meet and be friends, but I'll still be an arrogant ass hole.
AAH Finch
I might be mistaken or misled to this assumption that you are involved in cyrogenics.
If the liquid you use for cooling isn't kept under pressure it turns into vapor.
So if the fuel/liquid you are using comes into an aera of less than atmospheric it will turn to vapor easier.
If at the fuel pump inlet or in the line to it there is restriction to sufficent flow, cavation can take place, causing air/fuel vapor bubbles.
AllisonMan is correct, the bypass or extra fuel pressure needs an unrestricted flow, otherwise the pressure won't be regulated by the regulator but by the pressure built up in the return hose.
This is a quote from the MADMAN(Wayne Taylor) MAD EFI. Even though he's a red neck he knows his sh-t.
Mecury Marine sells probably over 200 EFI fuel pumps to Allison boat owners a year because Allison gas tanks are so deep. The pumps are mounted too high in the boat or are on the engine which causes early failure due to having to suck fuel to prime and then suck to pump fuel.
The pump has to suck to get the fuel to the top of the tank even though it's mounted below the fuel leval. Other wise there would be no need to create a siphon, the fuel would just start flowing over and out of the tank by itself.
Really I'm just trying to help, I know how is is to burn power heads up constantly due to my mistakes, ignorance or ignoring those tell tail signs or voices. Probably 2 a year for the last 15. That may be a little low.
"When you hear hoof beats, don't start looking for Zebras"
I'm guilty of this statement more than I'd like to think.
Some day I hope we will meet and be friends, but I'll still be an arrogant ass hole.
AAH Finch
Most of the liquid nitrogen vessels we use in our cryogenic lab are vacuum-evacuated dewars which are non-pressurized. They are like giant thermos bottles and do lose some LN2 going from liquid to vapor phase at the rate of about 0.1 liter per day.
In a 35 liter vessel, this is of little consequence, as we go through the whole 35 liters in a week or less.
Gary I still consider you a friend even though we have never met, and if you consider yourself an arrogant ass hole then I guess we'll even be better friends. :wink: I don't consider you as that, but I wish you'd not think of me as some dummy that knows nothing about physics or fluid flow or mechanics.
If I had never owned an Allison XB2003 prior to this Grandsport, then I'd probably be punching a hole in the bottom of this brand new tank to get a full-on gravity feed. However, my experience with the XB2003 and the identical tank and filter and pump setup has not produced any trouble of any kind--much less any noise at the pump like gravel passing through or frying bacon.
So that's my one reference point. My 2003 with the 280 and same pump doesn't exhibit this behavior. At all. Ever. Nor do I hear of this as a widespread problem amongst owners using tanks with stand pipes, as the large majority do.
I know you're trying to help. The photo on page one of this thread probably is misleading; off-angle. The bottom of the pump is at the same level as the tank bottom. Just tonight, I removed the supply line to the pump and verified that there was a solid gravity feed (siphon feed) to the pump bottom. With the lid on the fuel tank (to verify venting), I drained two gallons out the supply line at an output level corresponding to halfway up the length of the fuel pump. To the contrary, once the fuel is flowing, it can't wait to get to the pump.
Now if you can ever get your chit to run and stay together to make a WAR, we can LINE UP and see whose fuel pump works. :lol: Sorry, couldn't resist. Arrogant A-hole here. :wink:
J
John Richied
Guest
Oh boy, it’s line up and drag race time!!! This should be fun and PLEASE don’t forget to empty your livewells. :wink:
Quick question about the Allison fuel cell… The 90 degree fitting at the top of the fuel pickup tube, is it just a clean 90 or is there a ball check valve in there?
Quick question about the Allison fuel cell… The 90 degree fitting at the top of the fuel pickup tube, is it just a clean 90 or is there a ball check valve in there?
I wondered the same thing. The answer is no, there is no check valve in there.
J
John Richied
Guest
Well then it’s official; my boat has no balls… LOL 
Thanks Lou.
Thanks Lou.
Installed new fuel pump this morning.....
First was OK then a few minutes after running the motor on the hose, it started doing the bacon fry / popcorn noise thing AGAIN!!
Thanks Yellar, thanks Glenn for the overnite shipping...but Gary is right....I must be completely incompetent.
Now I am wondering what to do....I know.....go fishing.
First was OK then a few minutes after running the motor on the hose, it started doing the bacon fry / popcorn noise thing AGAIN!!
Thanks Yellar, thanks Glenn for the overnite shipping...but Gary is right....I must be completely incompetent.
Now I am wondering what to do....I know.....go fishing.
froggy
Active Member
Lou,
Why don't you try mounting your fuel pump HORIZONTALLY, on the floor of your boat. You don't need to do this permanently to test, just drop it down to a horizontal position. C'mon, humor us rookies.
froggy
Why don't you try mounting your fuel pump HORIZONTALLY, on the floor of your boat. You don't need to do this permanently to test, just drop it down to a horizontal position. C'mon, humor us rookies.
froggy
GFinch
Well-Known Member
[but I wish you'd not think of me as some dummy that knows nothing about physics or fluid flow or mechanics.
I truly don't think of you in this way. I'm just saying there's more than one way to skin a cat and better ways to flesh it out.
Now if you can ever get your chit to run and stay together to make a WAR, we can LINE UP and see whose fuel pump works. :lol: Sorry, couldn't resist. Arrogant A-hole here. :wink:[/quote]
Ok. I'll start at the bottom, taking John out(LOL) and work my way up the ladder to you!
In my dreams, only in my dreams!
If you can hear the throttle hit the floor, you just lost the race! A friend of mine, Dave Bush told me this one.
Got home from fishing at 10:00 am it's 118 and humid here today. Must be Global Warming.
It's not the pump making the noise it's the egg on the side walk frying!
Did you put the clear line on it and watch for bubbles?
I truly don't think of you in this way. I'm just saying there's more than one way to skin a cat and better ways to flesh it out.
Now if you can ever get your chit to run and stay together to make a WAR, we can LINE UP and see whose fuel pump works. :lol: Sorry, couldn't resist. Arrogant A-hole here. :wink:[/quote]
Ok. I'll start at the bottom, taking John out(LOL) and work my way up the ladder to you!
In my dreams, only in my dreams!
If you can hear the throttle hit the floor, you just lost the race! A friend of mine, Dave Bush told me this one.
Got home from fishing at 10:00 am it's 118 and humid here today. Must be Global Warming.
It's not the pump making the noise it's the egg on the side walk frying!
Did you put the clear line on it and watch for bubbles?
J
John Richied
Guest
I heard that Gary and THIS calls for a drag race. And IF you get around my little XB-2002 there won’t be a need for Lou to take his XB off the trailer… Lou will launch his XR and then babyGFinch said:
even if his fuel pump shorts out
I hear ya Gary it was 115 here today and it was time for a moratorium on boat work.
Early in the morning we changed the pump; and at first it looked like victory but then the sound came back.
Then we bled the hydraulic steering - to no avail. Still has slop in the cylinder.
So we gave up and headed for the bay in the 17' Hydrasports. It is still 92 degrees here and I think today might have been the hottest day ever in recorded history here.
I will put the clear line at the feed fitting as soon as it cools off, and report back. And sure, I will be glad to put the pump horizontal and try that too....and remove the W/S filter from the mix as another experiment.
This thing is really pissing me off now, I've replaced the tank, the pump, the lines, the filters....I guess you could say now I'm on a mission.
Oh yeah. I DID locate the relay for the pump. It IS relay-driven.
Also. The frying sound is NOT related to the return line. No way. We removed the return line from the tank altogether and put it into an empty 2 gallon container. The intermittant frying sound was still prevalent AND the return pumped out near a whole gallon in 1 minute.
Early in the morning we changed the pump; and at first it looked like victory but then the sound came back.
Then we bled the hydraulic steering - to no avail. Still has slop in the cylinder.
So we gave up and headed for the bay in the 17' Hydrasports. It is still 92 degrees here and I think today might have been the hottest day ever in recorded history here.
I will put the clear line at the feed fitting as soon as it cools off, and report back. And sure, I will be glad to put the pump horizontal and try that too....and remove the W/S filter from the mix as another experiment.
This thing is really pissing me off now, I've replaced the tank, the pump, the lines, the filters....I guess you could say now I'm on a mission.
Oh yeah. I DID locate the relay for the pump. It IS relay-driven.
Also. The frying sound is NOT related to the return line. No way. We removed the return line from the tank altogether and put it into an empty 2 gallon container. The intermittant frying sound was still prevalent AND the return pumped out near a whole gallon in 1 minute.