2.5 setback/Fulcrum point?

whipper

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Has anyone ever asked Darris for every inch of set back how much the fulcrum point changes?

Basically for carrying more than 1 passenger I would suspect more setback is better. By your self or with one passenger less? Any thoughts on this. Sure fuel load and other factors are at play hear. But I'm just curious were a good starting point would be. I seem to remember it being just behind the front passanger seat but cant remember if that was before motor or what?
 

GotMyAlly

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I know on the 21's, Darris ships them with 1" of extra setback if they are to be rigged with a 2.5. I would have thought it would take more than 1" to offset that weight difference.
 

catfish123

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I agree Neal.......when you consider the lengths you are dealing with, 1" difference would seem to be of little value.
 

whipper

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Yes I just got off the phone with Darris and he was saying he thinks 10 1/2 setback would be the fathest i should go with my 225 GS. The more you go back the more trim youll need. XB03,s benafit from 14inches of set back loaded because of the extra gear and layout of the hulls. With more setback on a loaded hull it off sets the fulcrum bringing it back more central than with less even though he says the hulls are pretty much identical. The fulcrum point he said for pleasure boating with the GS even when your trying for max speeds varies so much with fuel that it wouldnt make much differance anyway. So I guess if you are drag racing and have the exact same amount of fuel every time and you eat the same buger before every race it might be worth setting up that way.

He did say the if I welded and faired a small ball berring to the bullet nose I could pick up 3-4 mph.:big grin

And the 23 is comming along great with new technologies being added and theres no peeking yet because of this.:very sad
 
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catfish123

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Once again, Neal, I agree with you..........more set back should result in LESS trim being needed.
 

Bobalouie

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I had a 7" plate on my boat, and it wouldnt carry the nose very well with my extra weight and the troller on the front. No matter how high I trimmed her. Now that I have 10", I am hoping the nose will carry a bit better with the same or less trim.

It even states in the red book:

"If you are carrying substantial weight forward, (including driver and passenger), your boat may not have enough transom offset. Moving the motor further rearward can enhance center of gravity by giving the weight of the motor a longer lever arm on the transom. The rearward position of the motor actually provides additional bow lift with less trim."
 

jimbob88

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Boba, I read the same thing.
If the only difference from whippers gs to my 03 weight wise upfront is my trolling motor. I am confused. Aren't the seats in the same location on both boats? Learning & listening...
 

FlatOutAlly

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Boba, I read the same thing.
If the only difference from whippers gs to my 03 weight wise upfront is my trolling motor. I am confused. Aren't the seats in the same location on both boats? Learning & listening...
Confusion is the seat of understanding, Jimbob. May we all be healed from too much knowledge. That sayed, I think the fronts in an XS are a bit farther back than on the XB. The boat is definitely lighter in the front due to not needing to withstand golf shoes and a dozen rods. BTW - Can someone call Darris and have him buy into an internet account? ;) It would cut down on the clutter in here, doncha know?
 

whipper

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The way he explained it for the XS anyway, we never got into the XB other than he did say they require more setback than the XS in the neighbor hood of 14 he said were the Xs at 10.5 should be all i would need or less. I know Ziemer is at like 8.5 or 9.5 and others also. Todd is at 12 were I was. BTW before i explain how he said it i do notice I need less trim to get a spray at over 80 equal to the hight of the top of the cowl.

The way he explained it was the down force created when you accelerate. If the motor is closer to the transom the fulcrum point there for is more forward on the hull and the down forces on the pad are less when accelerating. Hence requiring less trim at even with the pad.

So now think of it the other way. More setback. The farther back the motor the farther back the fulcrum point. This also will make your bow rise more as the weight has been distributed farther back. As you take off the stern will squat more on an XS. This in turn barries your gearcase more and will require more trim to get the pad and gearcase running up were it belongs.

Every time Ive talk to Darris about this sorta stuff he always referse for simplicaty sake the teeter toter effect. As the motor spins the prop the back end digs a hole and the bow will rise. The closer to the transom the less of a hole having more weight forward.:banghead


When Darris refered to the XB he said a fishin load XB requires more setback. If i always had a load then then 12 would probably be better. Im usually by my self or only have one passanger now and then exept when schools out and the kids can come with me on the week days. A passanger in the back seat is going to move my fulcrum point way back. Having more setback would help in this situation. Less setback for skiing because the tall pylon is trying to pull the stern down to the point were the bow rises like its going over backward. If the motor had less in this case I would be moving the fulcum forward and the stern would be getting a little help by less setback.

On the GS the bow is very very light. i cant even walk on my deck. i crawed once on there and never again. The creeks and grows from it being so thin detured me from ever tempting this again. The bow is just an empty void. On the XB you have storage compartments a deck strong enough to walk on and a troller that must weigh 10lbs at least right at the tip of the bow. Allisons being weight sensitive as you all are aware must contribute to what he says for needing more setback than a xs on a XB hulls created equel. Take full live wells and add some rods and tackel into the equation and there would be quite a bit more down force at the bow than the XS when taking off and in 800ft loaded requiring a little extra setback. This does make sence to me. Now for practical testes im sure everyone who has tried differant setups will have differant results.

Personaly I need one or two more good days on the lake without any one there to make a real determination if i will keep my 10.5 over the 12 I had her at. But the one day on a busy lake I did have after some getting used to the differants in trim was noticable. I think I still need to move a bag around a bit yet to dial her in when Im alone. Full fuel and three passangers might be a diferant story?
 
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catfish123

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I must still be half asleep, because I can't follow the logic if in fact this is still indicating that the more set back one has, more trim is needed???????? Someone would have to prove that one to me.
 

whipper

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Mine's so heavy, it needs a kickstand! LOL
Really they are quite heavy.:shock: Anyway thats what I thought I said. More setback more trim for an XS. You guys were saying that less setback more trim from your XB,s right? :confused: That should be the case given the deck and other factors with equiptment hence 13-15inchs some guys run would require less trim than forward mounted 2.5 in your case.

Ill bet though take the troller off and run light less setback would be required with less trim.

I think it was real late when i wrote that book.:twisted evil I may have been wighting for someone on the teator toter or maybe the blue buss? :beating dead horse
 
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GotMyAlly

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I've never taken the troller off my XB21, but I took it off my XB03 frequently. Without that weight on the nose, it could run with a little less trim. I also had a T3X that ran great without that troller but wouldn't run for crap with the troller on.....until i sent it to Todd for a little more trim. In either case, I didn't notice any speed differences with or without the trollin motor on the boat, it just ran with a little less trim and I figured that meant a little safer. Plus it freed up deck space with it gone.

More setback = more leverage, lifting the bow. More trim lifts the bow. Both do the same thing. More of one means you need less of the other, in my mind. I always wanted just enough setback so that with a normal load, I was running just a couple degrees above neutral trim. If you have to trim the crap out of it, you need more setback (leverage). If you are running the motor perfectly neutral, you've got more than enough setback and can go in a little.

Now my experience also tells me that for holeshot, less setback (than what is required by a top-end setup) is likely quicker. When the boat stands up coming out of the hole, more setback buries the GC deeper, creating more drag.
 

whipper

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Yep thats what i got to. I misunderstood at first you were refering to the Bassboat. Im not the sharpest stick in the pile but once I remember i never forget.:banghead To have all things things aligned just right with your setup and normal load means safer and funner.
Now that I have a method of taking the motor off at home I can play around a little more with stuff. Ive always thought I needed a little less setback because i was trimmed to much I figured to get my *** out of the water. Things feel more stealth with much higher engine hights and less trim so far.

That troller needs to slide back more at rest? Or loose some weight.

Have you ever welded a small ball bearing to your bullet nose?:wink Sounds like fun. i always liked playing steelys.
 
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jas638

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i just recently changed my setup. combo 4.5 "ally brackets with 5.5" cmc hyd to all 10 inch total setback. to same ally bracket and a 8"hydrodymanics rapid jack. shed 20-30lbs? and i can definately not run as much trim as before. the boat gets high up on the pad . going with the wind is a little scary into the wind i can feel better downforce on the bow and she feels tighter. its at 1/4 below the pad. even was crazy to drive. thinking bout coming down to 1/2. and see how it feels.completely diffent feel to this setup. learning how to drive it all over again.not to mention havin 340hp jsre 260 .last year i was runnin a stock 260. i could punch it flat and trim it to top end this new motor is scary!!. i also think that the more setback the higher you can run your motor but it feels harder to drive. to me at least.
 
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