Who's running 3.0l+ motors on their Allison 2003's?

mxzx

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Who are running 3.0l+ motors on their Allison XB/XS2003's ? I know they are seen as a big no-no by Allison. I want to hear from guys that actually run the big motors, opinions and setup advice? Must be a few of you out there? The Promax's are getting to be an old motor and won't last forever, (mine has been stuck at the mechanics for 5 weeks now waiting for parts to rebuild). Hate to think that the biggest new motor I could put on my GSE would be a 175 Pro XS?
 

LakeAnna

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Who are running 3.0l+ motors on their Allison XB/XS2003's ? I know they are seen as a big no-no by Allison. I want to hear from guys that actually run the big motors, opinions and setup advice? Must be a few of you out there? The Promax's are getting to be an old motor and won't last forever, (mine has been stuck at the mechanics for 5 weeks now waiting for parts to rebuild). Hate to think that the biggest new motor I could put on my GSE would be a 175 Pro XS?
That sucks. Get the motor back home and make a new move. You can put a 3.0 on it for sure..... Sure feels nice with a 2.5 on it though.
 

procomp

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5 weeks? I ordered every new part i could for a 200 promax i built and it came from pro marine in Florida within a week.
Anyway, guy in SK has a 300 promax on his GS and he says it works well.
Is it the weight on the transom that makes Allison not recommend them? Lots of old boats with wooden transoms running them.
 

2fast4mom

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I'll get dog piled for saying this, but will anyway. Unless you know exactly what you are doing, and have experience doing it before and have made the requisite mistakes incumbent to hanging a 3 liter on an XB2003, you are setting up a death machine.

The 2003 was simply NOT designed for that much transom weight. I've spent countless hours with Darris Allison in person regarding this very topic. He is adamant about the unsafe nature this will impart to the boat. A barrel-roll of the boat is one likely outcome.

Bill Smith and others have hung 3 liters on their 03's and have had reasonably successful outcomes...BUT even Bill will tell you that you must incorporate some set-in-stone new habits to how you drive the boat, such as "never trim down while turning at xx mph.."

Get you a rebuilt 2.5 or rebuild one yourself and put something on the boat it was designed to carry by the engineer. Or a 200XS used or new.

Life isn't worth 3 liters.
 
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chad202

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Bring the motor in to 6" or less and setup it up very conservative. Don't get aggressive with engine height. And if you want it to handle even better, put it on a 15" mid. JMO
 

RedAllison

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Is it the weight on the transom that makes Allison not recommend them? Lots of old boats with wooden transoms running them.
It's got NOTHING to do with the structural integrity of the transom. It's all about the leverage & forces at work with a 2.5 vs 3.0. I "double ditto" what Lou said, Darris has MANY reasons why he is VERY ADAMANT about NOT recommending heavier motors on his 20ftrs. LOOK GUYS do you REALLY think Darris has done this because he enjoys being a hardazz? Do you think he WANTS to DELIBERATLELY cost himself sales & money via this position? OF COURSE NOT! The man is simply, first & foremost concerned about CUSTOMER SAFETY even at the expense of sales!!!

For those that haven't read or actually discussed this personally with Darris, here are a few of the top reasons Darris DOESN'T recommend it:

1). The 20ftrs were extensively and essentially designed SOLELY for the lighter motors. Heavier DFI smalllblocks & all of the 3.0s weren't even in the design stages when Darris was developing the 20ftrs in the late80s-early 90s!

2). The extra weight of 500#+ DFI 3.0 vs a 400# 2.5 is primarily ABOVE the mid-section so that extra weight is magnified significantly, ESPECIALLY in lateral directions.

3). Adding onto # 2). Something alot of people either don't realize or overlook, part of the amazing design abilities that Darris has put into his hulls are those of safety factors/considerations! Some examples are the aerodynamics that essentially prevent a blow over, sure you can "trim one over" but if you've ever stood one straight up on the tail at speed then you've "felt/seen" this ability of the hull to suddenly "lose air pressure & then sit back down" (I have as I stood my FULLY loaded xb03 straight up once in the upper 80s & my partner & I thought we were going for a swim but then the hull sat back down) AND THIS CRUCIAL POINT: The angles of the chines & other edges on the bottom of the hull aren't by accident! Darris designed them as such via years of his methodical "R&D". He states that they will hold the water VERY TIGHT for those infamous, seat base & neck straining, multi-G turns... UNTIL they reach his designed in limit at which THEN they will release their grip, the water will "squish" (Darris' actual term) & the hull will then slide atop the water INSTEAD of digging in & inducing a HIGHLY DANGEROUS "barrel roll". THAT is where the weight limit comes from, that "release/squish" may or may NOT happen with heavier motors!

4). Another key but not always discussed reason is the "ratcheting gearcase vs non-ratcheting gearcase". The 2.5 gearcase is a ratcheting case. That being, when the motor is turned off or killed while still in gear, the prop can still rotate via the water pressure turning it. Everyone's experienced this when their boats still moving at idle speed & they killed the motor while in gear. The boats forward momentem still pushes the boat & a "CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK" is heard from the motor until the boat essentially stops. For whatever reasons, Merc didn't put that feature on the 3.0 gearcases. So when you kill the power while in gear on a 3.0 the prop comes to a halt as well! No problem at low speed but at high speed, a power failure will STOP that prop which then becomes a multi-bladed rudder which will likely then ASSIST/CONTRIBUTE to the above mentioned barrel roll! :cuss

As I said, it's Darris' primary concern for OUR safety 1st! If anyone doesn't think Darris & Nancy aren't concerned for their customers safety, they DONT know those 2!!!

Yes, 3.0s CAN be built with aftermarket parts like a 15" mid & a 2.5 ratcheting case conversion for 3.0s that "should" make the marriage considerably safer. But GET OUT YO CHECKBOOK for such engine builds! :shock:

And finally, heck ProMax & 2.5 stuff is FINALLY getting ALOT cheaper now as the "new normal economy" & the market itself heads toward newer technologies... You can build LAKE POUNDING engines for half or even less than what it would've cost just 2 or more years ago!
 
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mxzx

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RedAllison,
Thank you for the very detailed and informative post. I now understand why 3.0l motors are not for the XS2003. Safety is definitely my number one concern. I will be sticking with a 400lb motor for my boat..
 

whipper

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Agree with 100% of everything Jim said. Darris told me the transoms have no trouble with heavy motors. They were designed to stand 3 times the weight of a 2.5 so 500-600+ lbs. Hence i would guess with all the 400-500HP 2.5 and 2.6 motors hanging off the transoms of lighter layed up hulls the the beefier XB and XS03 hulls has more transom stress than a 505lb 3.3 at only 300-330hp. At any rate I personaly wouldnt want a stock 300XS or DFI because of all of the above mentioned by Jim. I would only even consider it with a15inch mid higher rev limitter and a ratcheting gearcase.

The 300PM ProComp mentioned on the GS in Saskatewen has had many years of run time and isnt stock iether. Its a full simon modded motor with i think a 7000 rpm rev limitter AND it also has a ratcheting gearcase. It took lots of time and money with setback,wedges, and trying varying types of Cavitation plates to set it up on the GS. doesnt like to run solo as much as with two+ big guys in her. The 300PM was also a way lighter motor than the 300XS is. They are around 445-455? flywheel on top brings weight down nicley on these motors. But it wouldnt beet a strong 260 to 100 im pretty sure even with the 7000 rom limitter. Power to weight would win with higher rpm and smaller wheels. The 7000rpm on the 300PM made it a little better with the ability to run 28pitch props and 30 inchers over the XS motors need to run over 30 inch and have no gearcase ratcheting. Theres quite a bit of differance between a 300PM and a 300XS without as Jim mentioned spending big bucks bring down the center of gravity with a shorter mid but theres still the parachute effect of the 32-34 inch wheel on a non ratcheting gearcase with only a 6200 rpm limitter. So unless you went Full carbon cowl,15 inch mid,lightwer flywheel, with i would want a min of a 7500 rpm limitter, and a ratcheting gearcase i would stick with a 225pm,260 or 280. The 250/300xs sips fuel at a higher cost,Life. The 300PM drinks fuel witch has that cost pluss still needs a few mods over stock 260/280 performance in the same arena.

As mentioned it shouldnt be for everyone that is really not going to be safe for anyone on the water. But there are thoughs with big enough check books and loads of time and experiance that will tinker and try new things. i think thoughs people are the only one,s even really trying it right now? Its like a 427 AC cobra. Ya real fun till ya spin her out into a tree. The guy with 302 Cobra has way better balanced machine that drives like a dream without the extra wieght at one end.

i think the day will come soon enough to be able to ramp up the revs above 7000 and costs to mate the shorter mid to a 2.5 ratching case along with other lightening replacment parts will make setup for these motors more aprochable. Things are just starting happen. E-Techs and Yamahas are all working toward all these very issues in the aftermarket high po scene. For now its hard to beat a strong 260 or 280 with 260 electronics on an 03 in every way.
 

SLOmofo

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I have a 3.3 OMC . 16" mid. 7" set back. Ratcheting gear case.
I sure wish I had the cameras on when I got tossed out this January. We could all see at what angle the boat was to the water and the trajectory of my body as it left the boat and entered the water. I heard from an eye witness "all I saw was arms and legs!" He was also the person that pulled me back into my boat.
:help
 

catfish123

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Don't get a false sense of security with a 2.5 on it either, it can barrel roll and you can be thrown from it, and the boat can end up, upside down. I saw 2 Grandsports this week with 3 liter motors than ran great, and looked not at all nose high sitting in the water, even with 2 people on the back deck.
 

whipper

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Don't get a false sense of security with a 2.5 on it either, it can barrel roll and you can be thrown from it, and the boat can end up, upside down. I saw 2 Grandsports this week with 3 liter motors than ran great, and looked not at all nose high sitting in the water, even with 2 people on the back deck.
I was very very close three times to Barrel rolling mine with a 225!! I though for sure the one time I was going over water filled in from the sides my head was right there but righted.., at around 60mph. Comming off to fast to high. I bruised my ribs and pulled my shoulder a little. Was lucky. Another time at 95 when my prop cracked I was pointing stright up in the air sideways. As Red said must have been the self righting that saved that one! it can happen as you say Catfish with any motor on the back. i would also say its over 90% driver error when it happens.Even some mechanical issues can be driver error from not keeping up with maintenence and inspection of props ect... but over 90% i would say is just plain old, oh **** shouldnt have done that. :banghead
 

mxzx

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My goal in a newer motor isn't to squeeze every last mph out of it. Just looking for a newer motor that I can bolt on without modding, pull the kids and parents on ski's, wakeboards, etc, get good gas mileage on 87octane, no smoke, quiet and still do 80mph without a prop change. A new 3.0l+ Pro XS or Etec would fit the bill perfectly with all the torque they have. But if it is not safe to do then I won't do it. My kids are getting older and more into the watersports so the GS will have to be able to handle that. If I go with a 175Pro XS or 150HO Etec I guess I will have to be happy with 70mph with a prop that can pull the kids. If I had lots of $$$ I would have 2 boats, one for speed the other for family fun, but that isn't going to happen.
 

whipper

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Im in the same boat as you figeritively and litteraly.:big grin im going to do it one of these days though. The Etech is apealing to me more and more. Prop it safe with less setback a little tank adjustment to get the exact fulcrum point back as i have now and a Ratcheting gearcase. I may even line the keel line with 50-75lbs of lead to keep the same lateral stabilty if i cant go 16inch at the time. Just have to make the boat think theres a 2.5 on the back.:big grin
 

Lotus 50

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I have the two boat solution now. My SS2000 was getting too hard for my parents to get in and out of, so I bought a 16' Baja. Then my brothers liked skiing behind the Baja a lot more than skiing behind the Ally, but wanted more power. So we split the cost of a 115 HO three ways. It's nice to be in this position, I don't have a ton of money in the tow boat, around $8000 including a few props.

My parents rapidly got too old for the Baja as well, but that can't be helped.

All of this completely shifted my decade long plan to eventually put a green motor on my SS. Same concerns, a 150HO or 175XS would be a 70 mph boat with a ski prop, like my old XR4, and a prop change to go 80+.

And of course there was the 200XS calling to me. Buying new, I think its worth the money and the no warranty risk.

For the amount I use my Allison, a new engine is much money. If the Baja wasn't there, I'd have gone green one way or another this year. Instead I put a 225 PM on it.

You could buy a used tow boat/motor for the cost of a new green motor, even without brothers chipping in
 

Darth VMAX

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What about the 200 ETEC small-block? I know its not a strong 200 @ 195hp but its still an option and I would think still be a little stronger than the 150HO. Another option is the Yammie 175 Vmax. They are in their twilight years and are pretty resonable. More speed? You can invest an extra 3K and have a reliable, wicked AND effecient 250 hp motor. The Yammies are great ski motors as they inherently have torque to spare. I still say they are the strongest 175 available.
 
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