promax problems

whipper

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2006
Messages
5,409
Points
63
Location
prince george b.c. canada
whipper--
Do you have PM pump rebuild kit part #?
What pump? Today im taking my injection off finaly. Im going to take the timming advance box off and set timming to 26 at 3000rpm as per manual. The maNUAL SAYS 23 at 3000 with bullet conection on and max timming is 26 on the 225PM for this year. So with timming advance box off will set to 26@3000. Ill let ya know how this turns out. Its been sujested that the advance box can go and not fully advance the motor cousing loss of top end rpm obviousely. I could just set timming and unplug bullet conections to check this but while Im at it with injection off she goes. BTW what size pipe block screw is that going into the fitting starboard lower side of block 1/4 inch?
 

whipper

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2006
Messages
5,409
Points
63
Location
prince george b.c. canada
Injection is off and runs great other than the underlying problem I still cant figure out. ive narrowed it down to stator,switch boxes or a scorned cylinder wall. Im thinking stator at this point. Whats the easyest way to test the stator? Can I just hook the timming light on the plug wires and see if they are all fireing? Should they all show some sort of timming? I tried this yesterday and when setting the timming and 3 plug wires showed nothing? The others had some sort of time registering.
 

GFinch

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
1,609
Points
0
Location
Atascadero Calif.
Injection is off and runs great other than the underlying problem I still cant figure out. Ive narrowed it down to stator,switch boxes or a scorned cylinder wall. I'm thinking stator at this point. Whats the easiest way to test the stator? Can I just hook the timing light on the plug wires and see if they are all firing? Should they all show some sort of timing? I tried this yesterday and when setting the timing and 3 plug wires showed nothing? The others had some sort of time registering.

Whipper I take it you don't have a manual yet.
Tell us again what the underlying problem is. Surges, jerks, over all lackluster performance, top end........
Scored cylinder wall, leak down test or maybe compression test.
Have you thrown a fresh set of spark plugs in it, first.
You can see if the plugs are getting spark with a timing light but it wont tell you if they are actually firing.
One thing that you can see is if you run the engine in a dark area you can see if there is flash over or a spark leakage. Sometimes a water leak will happen under higher RPM and run down and short coils and plug wires.
You will have to index the flywheel it show where each cylinder should fire. A not exact way is to count the teeth on the starter ring gear and then figure where each cylinder should fire and mark it with something like White Out.
When you do this make sure the timing light pick up cable is AWAY from the other coils and high tension leads other wise the inductive pick up will flash the other cylinders.
In my book they should all flash any time the engine is turned over/cranked.

Dinner calls
 

whipper

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2006
Messages
5,409
Points
63
Location
prince george b.c. canada
Gary: motor not pulling past 6000rpm 99.9 percent of time. I did however get her to 6500 twice out of 102 times. All testing has been with a 25 trophy as I should be able to pull 7000 with. I have a brucato ACU 7500 limit.I have timming flash on all cylinders compresstion is 120 across the board as always. I havent done a leak down yet. Have diel indicator and make sure TDC every time i check the timming. I thought the timming advance may be acting strange maybe so took oil injection off and timming advance modual and the rest of the junk. Premixed to 40-1 and set timming to 26 as per manual. {I payed for my manual 2 months ago and they said its on back order!!:punch I call twice aweek} I have the timming pages printed off and some others though. My motor says max timming at 3000 rpm is 26. I static tested timming to 26 and went to the lake yesterday to try out the premix and see if any change takeing the advance modual off. Before I went out at the launch I checked timming at 3000 on the trailer. Oddly I was at 21? I just set to 26 an hour earlier at home static? I could not get 26 with out mooving the trigger all the way to the end off the through?? That would have read 30 in a static test at home? I didnt like that so put back to were it was beter safe than sorry. One sugestion was that the magnet the presses inside the flywheel some how is mooving and at speed sliding a bit not alowing full advance at WOT or something like that? He sugested borrowing a fly wheel and seeing if that changes anything. im just not getting more power to break 6000. The entire power range from hole shot is off a bit though. I could usually spinn the 25 like a chopper at take off and then she grabs. It just grabs and has a linier takeoff not very exitingly and pulls hardish up to 6000 were she seems to just run out of legs. There is a slight hesitation at the end of the run at 6000 feels like she cuts off all of a suden and doesnt pull any more would be the best discription. The whole thing started last Aug when I was idleing threw a narrow shallow canal and a nother boat came threw the one way canal and forced me to shallow picking up debree as I had the motor tilted as high as I could to maintain idle steering. the temps went up horn went off and motor shut down. I cleared out debree let her cool down in the lake and fires right up and off we went. Never realy noticed to much differance for a week or so then noticed speed was down a bit. I thought water in gas at first. Then while checking the 11/16th angled swivel at the top of the linkage to the trigger while undoing the nut it sheered off. Thats when the timming issues came! I took it to a merc dealer to have the timming checked and replace the trigger link rod only to find out he did the timming wrong. Would the TPS adjustment couse any of my problem? Also Seeing that I have spark on all cylinders does that eliminate the stator and the switch box? Im borrowing a high end muti Meter tester from work tomorrow to take some voltage readings and sugestions were to start. Mike has been a great help so far and Lee Davies from Lees Marine. That fly wheel therory is interesting?:banghead I realy need to do a leek down as i may have a scuff on a wall also. Im just trying to eliminate all other thing first as I would have to buy the tester and do it my self. What about the coils? i have the blue ones. I cant help but think it is something to do with the over heat. Something that starts to go thats supseptable to that condition. Because I run her all the time still im not convinced its a cylinder wall or ring? Plugs look good most of the time but have changed them twice a week lately because of all the timming changes and adjustment ive been making on the ACU. I shut down at WOT then check. Have fouled many and run them lean a bit also. Makes no differance to the rpm. I tried leaning her out once just to see and no change other that the fact that Id beter richen her up again! Im doing another compresstion check today. I rest timming last night to 26 static after the problem at the ramp yesterday at 3000rpm. Thats strange. im going to take her to the ramp Sunday and check the 3000rpm timming again and see if it does the same again. It doesnt have to be in gear for that does it? If checking coils what do I look for. Im sure learning a lot!!:help Also should i check timming with the acu disconected at all? The Stock ECU was on before but the problem was there the same as now with the acu. I got the ACU in the middle of trouble shooting but nothing changed. What do ya think I should try next besides a leek down because Im ordering one on wednesday and it will take a week to get hear. So in the mean time? Help.
 
Last edited:

GFinch

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
1,609
Points
0
Location
Atascadero Calif.
Whipper,

First and foremost remember, I HAVE OMC's, not Merc. And nothing is absolute!

First, you got even compression readings. Good. As to what they should be on your engine, don't know. Your Gage and my three guages all will read differently, Yours is high and even!:smile

When your using the dial indicator you are verifying that Top Dead Center(TDC) is 0 on your flywheel. Correct?

On an OMC I remove all spark plugs.
Screw a piston stopping tool into #1 cylinder.
Rotate the flywheel till the piston comes up against the tool.
Mark the flywheel where the timing pointer is indicating.
Rotate the flywheel the opposite direction till the piston again comes up against the tool.
Mark the flywheel.
Measure the distance between the two marks, divide that in half. That half way mark should be the zero mark on the flywheel.
If it isn't I move the pointer and start over again until the zero and the pointer are aligned.

"One suggestion was that the magnet the presses inside the flywheel some how is moving and at speed sliding a bit not alowing full advance at WOT or something like that? "
Whipper, again I'm not a Merc Guy so take this with a grain of salt. My thinking is if the signal magnet has rotated it isn't signaling truly in relationship to TDC.

Lets say this magnet spun retarded 10 degrees.
You set the TDC mark with the dial indicator to zero.
When you put the timing light on the engine and when it flashed it showed at 26 degrees, butt with the magnet 10 degrees retarded the real timing would be 16 degrees.

OK, that said. What kind of timing light are you using. I don't trust timing lights that have the capability to change the setting with a dial. Just a button to make it flash thank you!

"Would the TPS adjustment couse any of my problem? "
Throttle Position Sensor tells the computer where the throttle is. Idle, 1/3, 3/4. Wide Open Throttle.(WOT).
On autos, at Idle it's signal is used to adjust mixture and timing. If it isn't correct both fuel and timing are not correct.
On my SDS (Simple Digital System) EFI system TPS signal is only for fuel mapping. I believe on the Merc that the TPS is used for only fuel mapping. Could be wrong, don't know.

"Also Seeing that I have spark on all cylinders does that eliminate the stator and the switch box?"
As long as you have spark at the correct time for the given RPM, I would say yes.

"Im borrowing a high end muti Meter tester from work tomorrow to take some voltage readings and sugestions were to start."
With the correct tester and the correct method from the MERC Manual, thats where you start.

Blue is a pretty color for a coil,:), as to if their good or not. Don't know but you likely could have a coil breaking down under load and also high RPM.

Is one plug different then the others most of the time, color, washed clean, wet. I've chased my tail a few times because of water getting into a cylinder at different times.

Setting timing. I always have it strapped to the trailer, IN GEAR then REV it. On my OMCs you have to go above 5,000 to make sure as the flywheel can lift and give a Gull Wing effect which can change timing. Really gets peoples attention.

On a boat it's really hard to check for a cylinder thats misfiring some of the time, coil,plug spark plug wire, boot insulation. What would be nice is to not have splashing water and have a clear view of the back of the engine. What I have done is run the engine in a tank, and in the dark watch for spark leakage. Spark plug wires get this blue halo around them sometimes. If you fill a spray bottle with water and a little salt(helps conduction) spritz a little carefully around the coils and wires and boots, sometimes you can get them to spark leak. I only say this is what I do, not saying anyone else should.

"Also should i check timing with the acu disconnected at all?"
I don't have a clue!

If the problem was there both with the ECU and the ACU and the problem didn't change, I doubt it is in the fuel side. You said you richened it up and leaned it down without change so there again doubt it's the problem.

Engine needs basically three things. Compression, spark at the correct time and fuel in the right amount to run.

Whipper I'm not there, so you are on your own. I'd, recheck how the zero mark is set and set it. Then I would set the timing to spec with a light, in gear at above 3,000 rpm. Warm it up, make sure the rich/lean wheel is set correctly and then change the plugs. Run it a short distance, see how it feels now. Chop the throttle check the plugs.

Don't do like I do and burn it down going to far since it runs good. There a saying. It runs best, just before It goes BANG!!!!!!
 

whipper

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2006
Messages
5,409
Points
63
Location
prince george b.c. canada
WOW Gary thanks!!!:beer: i just came off a 12 hour night shift when I wrote that and wasn't sure I understood myself! I'm impressed with your ability to decipher all that!:laughing You are correct in all what I was saying and the magnets also. The TDC guage i just got from Jaysmith is simple. Just rotate till needle is top and starts the other way. Top mark on gaudge is 0. On his you rotate back counter clock wise 1.5 turns and that should line up with 25 on the flywheel and it does after I move needle to 0 at top reading first.I have a marked fly wheel so its easy. My timming light has a dial on it. Its a simple one not didgital or anything but still has the knob that you can turn to 40 or so. I got cought a couple of times moveing it with my chin as im trying to aim to get the perfict mark holding the trigger at the same time! I think I will try a new timming light and set the TPS before I pull heads. Ill recheck all of that and put new plugs in and try that. I might try a differant plug! Im useing br9hs-10? Any other thoughts on plugs to try? Im running rich still and the plugs get bunged up fast! The mechanic played with the TPS one day but had the wrong meter so stoped playing with it! I dont know what he did to it if anything. Id better do it my self.:banghead The book says the TPS is what determans rich or lean. Less Volts means leaner burn ect.. He may have turned it and Im getting to high a volt reading cousing my rich burns! I should send him the bill for all the plugs Ive gone threw!! I know that when I set the ACU to the numbers that Tony said I should be running at Im rich.then when I play with it its not right iether! I may have somthing there? I,ll do all this and take her for a boot and see how she goes. New timming light simple one just a buttom. Reset timming at lake at 3000 rpm. And check Volts on TPS. new plugs and set ACU to stock settings. {When you said your engine bubbled at the ramp are you in gear?? Should I put the e brake on and set at 3000 in gear?} I have two more night shifts so cant get to lake untill wed. If this doesnt work ill pull heads on wed night. Cant wait for leak down tester to arive as if its a ring or Cylinder wall Ill need it fixed before my month holiday with the Allison on Aug second. Were staying on the water the whole time sking so need the boat working. Thanks Gary! In gear or not?
James P.S. With the oil injection removed and an ACU that can lean or richen do I even need the TPS hooked up?
 
Last edited:

GFinch

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
1,609
Points
0
Location
Atascadero Calif.
Whipper,
Slow down man!
Just do ONE thing at a time, or you won't know what the problem was. Also lets say you tried three things, one of them the TPS , set too rich and then also set the timing spot on, where it hadn't been set correctly ever before. The third thing you somehow got a little Diesel in with the gas. Now you run it and it runs absolutely terrible cuz the rich and diesel canceled out the perfect timing setting. You wouldn't know it would you.

"I might try a different plug! I'm using br9hs-10? Any other thoughts on plugs to try?"
Use whats supposed to go in the engine, what did Tony say to use?

The TPS is key here. If it's been miss adjusted your going to be running in circles with your hair on fire. Well at least fouling plugs by the case load. On the other side if it was set TO lean you'd be asking who to send the engine for sleeves and pistons.

{When you said your engine bubbled at the ramp are you in gear?? Should I put the e brake on and set at 3000 in gear?}
If anything is behind the boat, it's getting drenched. One time, the prop wash pushed the dock out far enough that I couldn't get back on land without wading. Our lake levels fluctuate so the docks ramps have rollers.
If you have a low pitched prop the engine will spin up faster and you might not throw as much water. The best is what is called a test wheel. Doesn't even look like a propeller, it puts a load on the engine without spraying alot of water.
Me..., only in gear. I cringe when someone free rev's an engine. Only under load. Brake on fully, trans in park. Boat straps tight to trailer, all of them. I don't like anyone near the back of the boat and wait till no ones close around. Never know when a blade will fly off or......
Oh make sure the launch ramp is clean of stuff that might get sucked into the engine or prop and thrown. I have a vid of Dave Bush's boat at Jasper last year where he is revving it on the trailer, in gear. I'm not computer learned enough to get it on a web site, it's aw-sum, well at least to me. That engine sounds like 10 "Sack O Cats" at once, gives me chills.

Whipper when you get the manual, it's going to have a section on what people call "Sync N Link", find it and read it,..... every word. I know I tend to not read every word as I'm dyslexic. Thank you for spell check! Start at the beginning and DO EVERY single step, don't ASSUME, you do know the meaning, I'm sure. Set everything back to it's starting point, then at least you will know where you are.

If an engine is too rich it's going to have flat performance, but it will usually stay running. If it is to lean it will burn it's self up, not pretty, things get quiet suddenly, "The sound of silence".

"With the oil injection removed and an ACU that can lean or richen do I even need the TPS hooked up?[/quote]"
The computer needs inputs to tell it where HERE is. Then with it's mapping it will allow the fuel injector to spray for a period of time = Milli seconds.
The basic inputs are:
Engine temperature= cold running engines need more fuel until they are up to operating temparature.
Air temperature= cold air, the molecules are closer togeather. Hot air they are farther apart. Cold air = more air which needs more fuel.
Throttle position= registers the amount of air available for the engine to take into itself.
RPM= engine speed also how fast the engine is accelerating or decelerating.

All these points are considered in the MAP of the computer. Once the computer knows where HERE is then it will allow the injector to spray a precise amount.

This is my thought on the wheel.
Once the engine is running correctly with it's base settings, then the stream wheel is used to modify the fuel curve for, load in the boat, pitch of the prop, weather conditions, atmospheric pressure, humidity..... outside conditions.

They can be dangerous: If you lean it down for saving fuel while cruzing and then get in a race and forget to turn it back to zero. Or it gets bumped and not noticed. They can also be a tool to see if the engine is mapped correctly in the right hands.

Whipper, just go slowly and learn what you can about what you have. I hope I have helped you a little and haven't told you anything to lead you astray.

The two pics:
One is air/fuel ratio and its bearing on power output.
The second is pyrometer readings. This pic shows the two sides of temperature; a too rich 1,400 degree and a too lean 1,400 degree.
With these you can get a better picture as to what is happening when you turn that dial! :help
 

Attachments

whipper

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2006
Messages
5,409
Points
63
Location
prince george b.c. canada
Gary just got up. I understand. I have been reving engine to 3000 in nutral! I sure didnt like that. I wont do it again. The plugs Im useing are the ones Tony said to use Ill just keep using them then. There cheep 3.50 each. Ill bet I get a differant reading in gear. All of the linkeges are correct. Ive tripple checked and look good. They were good before and still are. Butterflyes fully open ect..stops in the right spot. Volts for the tps are suposed to be between .200-.300 volts.I have good instructions on how to adjust.Ill do one thing at a time timming first again with diferant light. Ill wait untill my timming is set at the ramp in gear at 3000 rpm to obtain 26 deg. Theres never anyone at the ramp on weekdays just me so will be a good time to do this on tuesday or wednesday. Ill use new plugs and take her for a spin to see how that goes. With acu at settings Tony said to use. I,ll warm her up and go WOT for a 1/2 mile and shut down from wot so not to clean plugs. Check for richness on plugs. If plugs look black still after a few runs like this Ill look at volts on TPS and try again. Thanks James
 
Last edited:

GFinch

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
1,609
Points
0
Location
Atascadero Calif.
James,
Here is a post on S+F that parallels . Might see some tid bits here.
http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162721

When you get the manual do the sync and link by the book.

"I,ll warm her up and go WOT for a 1/2 mile and shut down from wot so not to clean plugs."
I would not go that far to begin with as I've stuck engines in less than that distance.

With that meter your going to get to use. Check the TPS for drop outs and glitches. Drop out, the voltage or resistance will be changing gradually and then suddenly it isn't there or large changes in value, spikes, any thing other than a gradual change isn't allowed, both going up and down.
When you check, the area where the throttle is used most is where the glitch will most likely occur.
Idle, wake-less speed, tubeing, WOT.
When I check this type of signal I always start at the lowest opening values then work up. The problem can be intermittent .
What I use is a graphing/recording multi meter. It is made by Snap-On Tools called a Vantage.
Important: any time computer circuits are to be checked only use a High Impedance meter.
 

whipper

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2006
Messages
5,409
Points
63
Location
prince george b.c. canada
The electrician at work showed me how to use it last night. I have it for a week we took the same days off. Its a very high quality one thats for sure. All digital read outs. Ill watch for smooth readings up slow and down and for glitches. The pages I have from the manual say this also. XSive emailed me a bunch of pages from the manual.
I cant believe its takeing so long getting the Manual!! I paid 80 bucks 2 months ago for it! I have to work OT tonight again them off till saterday. Tomorrow afternoon when I get up im heading to the lake to set timming in gear and check plugs. Ill just blast to wot then shut down then. I followed the link Ill see were Im at with the tps. I talked to Jared whos thread this is he bought a 260 all is well.
I saw a 99 promax for sale for 5600 on S&F but not ready to give up ever! A spare would be nice right about now though!:laughing I know a guy who has a parts promax if I need a stator or anything like that it has a hole in the side is all, everything else works. I could use the volt meter for checking spark on the plug wires also to test the stator again I guess also. James
 
Last edited:

wj225

Active Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Messages
122
Points
16
Please do not use the voltmeter to test the voltage on the plug wires. You will toast a perfectly good meter. Chances are that your meter is good for 600 volts. The ignition system will put out over 10,000 volts. As others have said, check the timing with the motor in gear. As you advance the throttle to obtain the correct RPM, make sure that the advance rests against the stop. In other words, timing should be fully advanced at 3000 RPM in gear. I doubt that was the case if you set the timing while in neutral. Just my $0.02, but if it were me I would put the stock computer back on the boat until I got things fixed. This will eliminate any issues that you may cause by monkeying with the mixture.


Bill
 

whipper

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2006
Messages
5,409
Points
63
Location
prince george b.c. canada
When static test I tie straped the stop against the block. Im sure its going to make a differance in gear also. I reset timming to 26 static as a base before I get to the lake. Thanks for the info about the meter. Its a fluke 87-111 I called the electrition its only good to 1000volts rms what ever that means?:laughing I have to put it on the miny setting to get tps volts. Do i have to do the tps in gear also? Because i must move the throttle from stop to wot slowly to get readings Im thinking I must do this static? I dont have the stock ecu. Sold it first day off. I know were the settings should be on the acu. Is programed for my motor. The problem was the same with the old ecu.
 

Jared

Active Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Messages
77
Points
0
Location
south alabama
well boys i know the problem , Droped a piston all i could say was chit happens. Anyone know a good place in the south to have one resleved let me know or if anyone has a powerhead for sale. I guess this is what it is all about. Just out of curiosity what exactly goes wrong to make a piston burn up. Any help that i could get to get back in the water sooner i will appriciate it thanks Jared
 

GFinch

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
1,609
Points
0
Location
Atascadero Calif.
rms = root mean square

Wheres the manual:same ole song

James your sort of on your own cuz I don't know what the values are, whether they are going to go up or down as the throttle is opened.

Whatever you do, you want to keep the wires and leads from touching each other or to the metal of the engine.

Before you connect or disconnect any wire connecter the power has to be OFF.
 

whipper

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2006
Messages
5,409
Points
63
Location
prince george b.c. canada
well boys i know the problem , Droped a piston all i could say was chit happens. Anyone know a good place in the south to have one resleved let me know or if anyone has a powerhead for sale. I guess this is what it is all about. Just out of curiosity what exactly goes wrong to make a piston burn up. Any help that i could get to get back in the water sooner i will appriciate it thanks Jared
Well well that truly sucks! Im thinking the same thing at this point Jared. Witch one and how bad was it? This was on your 225 right not your 260? I ordered new head gaskets yesterday for mine planning on taken em off for a look if the fuel pressure checks out.
 
Last edited:

SLOmofo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2007
Messages
2,432
Points
63
Location
1/2 way between the Gay Bay and LA.
well boys i know the problem , Droped a piston all i could say was chit happens. Anyone know a good place in the south to have one resleved let me know or if anyone has a powerhead for sale. I guess this is what it is all about. Just out of curiosity what exactly goes wrong to make a piston burn up. Any help that i could get to get back in the water sooner i will appriciate it thanks Jared
Take a picture and post it. One of the failed and another of the whole bank. You'll get guesses and educated guesses. Most of the time it's either too lean or too hot. Make sure you find and correct or you will be doing it over. Be happy if it doesn't look like this!
 

Attachments

Last edited:

LAAllison

Active Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2005
Messages
245
Points
16
Location
Fairhope Alabama
Hartsell at 675 8088 is one of very few I'd trust in Mobile. Another would be Scott at Carpenters Marine in Chickasaw. Call Brett Platt at Outboard recycle for help in locating a power head. Good luck.


Art



Roll Tide
 

Jared

Active Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Messages
77
Points
0
Location
south alabama
I called Jaco Marine today and i guess i will go ahead and get a new powerhead with warranty it is around 4500 but it is new. James it was the 225. Let me know how yours look.
 

whipper

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2006
Messages
5,409
Points
63
Location
prince george b.c. canada
Will do. im sure hoping its not the power head but fuel or something. Just got the extra parts going to pick them up and start testing then on today.
 
Top