300xs on a Grand Sport Darris said NO!

[mikesufka]

Badbait -

That's incredible. I would love for Darris to comment on that. Personally, I think a 300X or 300 Promax (I own two on my Spectre) would be fantastic on a Grandsport. Disregarding the setup, the motors are easy to idle and run great at WOT. Plus, just don't run it full of gas, that would make up 50-100 pounds right there.

I used to own a Grandsport with a 2.5 EFI. After going through powerheads, mixing oil, charging batteries, etc..., I was happy to sell it (the motor, not the boat). I always though a more "user friendly" motor would be the ticket. Now, I'm about to buy a Grandsport with a 200 ProV Yamaha. Granted, it won't run 100 MPH anymore, but 90+ MPH will still be a thrill and it will run all day, everyday.

On a side note, why doesn't Darris come on here? It would be great to hear his opinion on some of this stuff. I bet he has stories upon stories to share as well.

Mike Sufka
St. Cloud, MN

 

[catfish123]

Badbait.....one thing I have a hard time understanding........With your tongue weight numbers, since it is pretty well established at least in most circles that 14 to 14.5 inches of setback is optimum with a 2.5 and since that, by your observations, equals 60 lbs of tongue weight, why wouldn't you want to put your heavier motor back further so that it would equal 60 lbs of tongue weight?

 

[SLOmofo]

On a side note, why doesn't Darris come on here? It would be great to hear his opinion on some of this stuff. I bet he has stories upon stories to share as well.

Mike Sufka
St. Cloud, MN[/QUOTE]

WHY!
Most would show respect, the others would be taking pot shots at him all the time.

 

[badbait]

Catfish, that’s a very fair question and yes 14 to 14.5 inches of setback is said to be the optimum for a 2.5 400 lb motor. I kind of did this backwards since as far as I know there was no information available for the 3-liter motor as far as optimum setback. I started at 12 inches and it just didn’t work period. I came in 6 different times before I was some what satisfied with the holeshot. The 3 liter has a lot more torque than the 2.5 and it was a slug out of the hole even at six inches of setback. When I got to 3” I still wasn’t satisfied until the second ride plate that I had made and mounted under the manual plate made it work much better. So it was just trial and error. I cut and redrilled 3 different plates before ending up here. Anyway after working on mine and a few other Allisons I’m not convinced that what’s established in most circles is the only way to get results. Sometimes it helps to think outside the box.

 

[2fast4mom]

Just a dumb question about the tongue weight thing...doesn't this equation assume that the water fulcrum or pivot-point fore to aft is the trailer axle, when in fact the fulcrum is the pad? And isn't the trailer axle pretty far forward of the pad?

Take a pencil with an eraser on it and balance it on your finger...etc. ??

 

[badbait]

Lou, I’m not smart enough to answer your question. But to answer one part of it the axle is only 2.5 feet from the transom as I remember on the single axle trailer I will measure tomorrow when I go to my shop. I do know if I have gained 170 pounds of weight under my bow wheel and the only thing I’ve done is bring the motor in and replace the hydraulic plate with a manual plate. I have moved the balance point of the boat forward probably 7 to 8 inches. In my opinion this has to reduce the stress and leverage on the transom.

 

[catfish123]

What is the real weight difference between the 2.5's and 3.0's? I have read at different places, so many things, that I'm not sure of the actual weight difference. Thanks.

 

[2fast4mom]

I think it's like 100 lbs?

I'm off now to meet up with RA at Linda's. :smile

 

[badbait]

I'm not exactly sure what the exact difference is 100 to 120 lbs. You can offset approximately 20 lbs of that when you go from the 14.5 setback to a manual 3" setback.

 

[jimmyb]

weights:

merc 3.0L optis = 500-510 depending on gearcase
200xs = 440#
merc 2.5's = 400-420 depending on midsection, cowl type, and gearcase

 

[Yellowallison]

YEP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DARRIS............... is gunna keep tellin everyone you can't PUT a 3.0L on an ALLISON right up to the day thay close they doors because last time I checked........ Mercury quit making 2.5's a few yrs ago!!!!!!

I also don' think your gunna find many NEW ALLISON OWNERS that wanta spend 50K on new HOTROD ALLISON BOAT with a 175 (2.5) PONTOON moto on the transom!!!

Heck I even hear BULLETT and CHUB are VERY ACTIVE BOARD MEMBERS on the you can't put a 3.0L on an ALLISON foundation!!!

:relax: :relax: :relax:

I want evern start with all the other reason why ALLISON is only making 15 boats a year!

And yall KNOW I own MORE and love ALLISON's as much as anyone but they way things are going now!!!

Its aint GOOD boyzz :very sad

P.s!!! my dad wants anuther NEW 21 longdeck ... but he wants few things different than the ALLY norm that BULLETT/CHUB would do without questions... but he knows DARRIS is not....... so another NEW BOAT sale aint gunna happen!!

 

[2fast4mom]

you can't put a 3.0L on an ALLISON foundation!!!

That would be 20-FT ALLISON foundation!! :relax:

Too bad that MERC didn't bump up that 175 (which produces ~192hp) to a 200 sticker...because yep it is a 2.5 liter plant and it does produce close to 200...but Merc is conservative on the ratings and in this sport it is better to err on the side of the conservative, therefore Darris does feel very emphatic about not wanting 3 liters on 20 ft hulls!! :beating dead horse

 

[K.Kiser]

Darris operates at a more finite level than the vast majority of consumers, You can damn that on one side of the coin by disagreeing with His recommendations but everyones seems to love what a kick *** boat His personality produces... I also think that Darris is very conservative on His recommendations, but He knows what He knows... Hell, I put a modded 2.5 on one of His 16' Ally's and it would outrun a phone call so I'm sure His 20' ers can hold a 3.0 Liter but the Man has His standards... Allison doesn't sell many boats these days but that makes Me respect Him even more by stickings to His guns when faced with adversity and not "selling out", I think it says alot about the Man (not that it was being debated).. My Family has owned 4 Allison's, 2 Bullets and boats are My #1 hobby and passion... I currently own a 100+ mph Bullet and they are nice boats, but if they knew twice as much about the science and art of boatbuilding they would still only know 1/2 of what Darris does...

 

[ALLISONMAN]

one more thing on the weight of the tongue being more what happens in an emergency shutdown when even with a 2.5 hanging 14.5" off the nose wants to bury and bat turn??? seems to me that the more weight up front the more dangerous it would be in a shutdown or mechinical problem??maybe to the point of instead of bat turns maybe a submarine type deal or flip and roll??? just thinking

 

[2fast4mom]

Bryan you are on the money according to Darris the additional weight combined WITH the change in CG defeats some of the "non-advertised" hull benefits that he has worked on for years to keep the boats open side up during a "JR thrillride"!!

Although the weight can be offset by bringing it towards the transom it is still weight and cannot be eliminated.

 

[JR]

Just something to "throw in the pot"; When I do a really good bat turn, while pivoting on the bow, I bury my GS's nose straight down into the water all the way up to the windshield. That is why I only bat turn in deep water, since spearing the bottom would probably break the hull in half.
If I had another another 100# on the transom, straight up in the air pushing my bow even deeper, things could get serious real fast. I can see it might be possible to put the nose under all the way to the back seat.

The boat's weight and balance calcs would not depend as much on the GA pilot [method] CG+/- x the arm=moments as much as it would be closer to the MAC method [mean aerodynamic cord] that the Airline Pilots use which is the pivot point of the lifting foil [wing] or on a boat, the pad.
Clear as Mud???

 

[Yellowallison]

Jus think....

In a few more yrs the Ally Rally will be show up and sit on the dock and play cards or BINGO cuz everyone 2.5's are going to be SENIOR CITIZEN's and not able to RUN down the lake.. :razz

You'll be able to get a DISCOUNT on your parts with yur 2.5MERC/ALLY senior citizens card along with front row parking spot at the boat ramp!!:razz

 

[badbait]

Opinions are like belly buttons we all have one. I have driven boats for 40 years and even though I’m not an engineer I can tell when a boat starts handling better than it ever has before. I can take my foot off the gas at 90 and it will settle in strait. I had a lower unit seize up when I was running with another boat at over 90 in fairly rough water. Since the lower unit seized the prop just stopped turning and at that point it became a rudder and turned me around. The nose did not go under, the boat stayed level and just turned around slow enough to leave me in the seat.
Since I’m the only one defending this setup and since it’s unpopular with the MFG. This is all I’m going to say about it..

 

[jay j]

from what i understand is that darris has been lobbying mercury very hard for a 250hp 2.5 dfi motor that would turn 7k rpm. whether or not merc listens is anybodys bet, but deep down i do not think they have "discarded" the racer or high performance buyers. the technology is there and there is a customer base. hopefully darris is hedging a bet on them doing so. if not alot of sweat, money, engineering, r and d have been totally lost. whether it moves up to bigger heavier boats, it can still be, it'll be up to us to adapt.

 

[Darth VMAX]

Adaptation??? allright. Here is the lightweight power for the 20ft Allisons:

This: http://www.yamaha-motor.com/outboard/products/subcathome/8/home.aspx

PLUS this: http://www.yamaha-rebuild.com/phasekits.htm

= HAULIN BASS!!!!!